REP. ROHRABACHER: Thank you, Mr. Berman.
Mr. Secretary, you've mentioned this long series of provocations
-- I don't know if I've pronounced it right -- provocations, okay.
Okay, I got tongue tied for a moment. So you've mentioned long series
of provocations -- and again, this to me is reminiscent of the Gulf of
Tonkin provocations which did not in any way justify what actions were
placed after that. Are you saying however then that this long list of
provocations justified the Georgian attack -- everyone agrees that
Georgia attacked and launched their military operations first against
Ossetia -- you're saying that the provocations justified that Georgian
MR. FRIED: No.
REP. ROHRABACHER: Okay, that's fine. It didn't. (Laughter.)
And I agree with that and obviously the -- anyway --
MR. FRIED: I --
REP. ROHRABACHER: -- let's get down -- okay, then they attacked
in great number. How many Ossetians were killed by the Georgians when
they came into Ossetia?
MR. FRIED: I don't know.
REP. ROHRABACHER: One hundred and fifty.
How many Georgians were killed after the Russians -- after the
Georgians came in and killed these Ossetians to try to terrorize them
back into -- under their submission to Tblisi and then the Russians
intervene -- how many Georgians were killed?
MR. FRIED: I'm not confident in very many of the statistics.
REP. ROHRABACHER: Okay, but 150 -- less than 150 in each case --
but near 150.
How many Serbs were killed by American military operations to
make sure that the Kosovars have their right of self determination?
About 500 is the answer, Mr. Secretary.
Now we can talk until we're blue in the face trying to say there
is no analogy here, but it doesn't cover up the obvious analogy
between Kosovo and what's going on in Georgia where you have breakaway
republics similar to what the Serbs face.
Now the only difference is of course, we're Americans and they're
Russians. And the people trying to breakaway there were pro-Russian.
Let me ask you, is it NATO's job now to make sure that any group
of people that want to be independent, like the Kosovars or let's say
the Ossetians -- that -- is it NATO's job now to force all of those
people -- utilize force and protect any nation that's using force
against people who want their own self-determination -- to protect
those governments who are using force to keep people from breaking
away and becoming independent and creating democratic self governing?
MR. FRIED: That is not NATO's job, although I disagree with you
about the relationship between Kosovo and South Ossetia.
REP. ROHRABACHER: And I respect all of the work that you did in
Kosovo -- and I just returned from Kosovo over the break and I will
tell you it is so evident that our credibility is -- is great damage
to our credibility by repeating what is so obviously untrue.
And I would suggest that, as I did in my opening statement, we
have just been pushing the Russians and pushing the Russians, making
them into an enemy when they at first wanted to be friends. I
remember when Paris blew up hundreds of their children, our president
of the United States didn't even bother to go over there and to
express our sympathy and unity with those people.
Finally, let me just note, with all of this talk and all this --
I mean, ominous threat about Russia, here we end up seeing just the
opposite reaction about what's going on in China. You compare what
the Russians have done to democratize -- and no democracy at all in
China -- the fact that the Chinese are -- we've caught 50 spies in the
last six years from China stealing military secrets from us.
Mr. Secretary, how many Russians have we caught stealing military
secrets from us in the last five years? The answer is zero.
And the fact is we end up -- that's not saying that they don't
have intelligence services -- but what -- but the Russians are being
portrayed as our enemy, the Chinese as our friend, yet the Chinese are
the ones who are the totalitarian state. This double standard doesn't
-- isn't being missed in Moscow. And either we're for democracy --
either we're for those people in Kosovo and in Ossetia and elsewhere
-- and in, I might say, in Georgia and their right to be separate from
Russia in the beginning -- to begin with -- if we lose that, we've
lost the high ground. We're already losing our creditably right now,
let's not lose the high ground. Let's be for self-determination and a
democratic process and not think that because we're part of NATO that
gives us the right to go in and back up these governments that are
using force on ethnic groups that want to be free and independent.